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 SDA Pro-life Comments
by Nic Samojluk
The following comments were selected from an Adventist web site where the issue of abortion is being discussed and where most of the posting are definitely pro-life. These favorable comments are in sharp contrast with the prevailing attitude of Adventists connected with the Loma Linda University where the majority of Adventists see nothing wrong with the killing of the unborn. To read these comments in its proper context without any omissions, see the following source:
Should Adventist Christians Have More to Say About Abortion?
http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=3053.0
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Richard OFfill
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As Seventh-day Adventist Christians do we say enough about the evils of abortion? Personally, I think not. Please read the following news clipping from Telegraph.co.uk.
"The new Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Massachusetts, has given a sermon describing abortions as a "blessing" for the women who undergo them. The Rev Katherine Hancock Ragsdale also thinks that the people who run abortion clinics are "heroes" and even "saints".
"Ms Ragsdale, speaking in Birmingham, Alabama, said that "when a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion - there is not a tragedy in sight - only blessing."
[Dean Ragsdale finished her sermon with the following exhortation]: "These are the two things I want you, please, to remember - abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.
"I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing - who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes -- in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You're engaged in holy work." |
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Richard Holbrook
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Yes our SDA hospitals do perform abortions, and on a very large scale. Some years ago a friend of mine was attending a question and answer session where Neal Wilson (the General Conference President) was answering some questions. He was asked: Why do our hospitals perform abortions? My friend heard him say that all our hospitals did abortions....and if we didn't perform them for the women, we would lose their business....so we may as well make the money off them...
Back in the days of our pioneers we were definitely pro-life, but about 10 years before Roe v Wade it started to change. And this is where we are now. |
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Richard Holbrook
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A good friend of mine, Nic Samojluk wrote his Doctoral Dissertation on this very subject.
"From Pro-life to Pro-choice:
The Dramatic Shift in Seventh-day
Adventists' Attitudes
Towards Abortion"
A Doctoral Dissertation
by Nic Samojluk, Ph.D.
http://sdaforum.ipower.com/page13.html
Not only is it good reading, it's very enlightening. .......In answer to the original question, I would say yes. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Raven on May 12, 2009, 07:11:58 AM
I don't mean to be cynical, but could it be that some of our hospitals are preforming abortions, and that there is money in it?
Raven,
The answer is “Yes,” some of our Adventist hospitals have been performing elective abortions upon demand. Some years ago it was reported in our “Minitry” magazine that a survey revealed that five of our medical institutions were offering abortion services to their patients. I made this discovery when I was working on my doctoral dissertation entitled “From Pro-life to Pro-choice: The Dramatic Shift in Seventh-day Adventists' Attitudes Towards Abortion.”
This major shift in our policies took place in 1970 when our hospital in Hawaii was faced with the dilemma of either offering abortion services or else loose patients. Unfortunately, the fear of loosing business led our leaders to compromise on this moral issue. But this should not surprise us, since a similar moral failure took in Germany during the Nazi regime. Nor long ago, our German and Austrian SDA leaders issued a public apology for our cooperation with Hitler while the genocide of the Jews was taking place.
We need to encourage our leaders to return to the example of our SDA pioneers who manifested a strong pro-life stand and labeled abortion as a direct violation of the sixth Commandment. Lately, our SDA silence regarding abortion has been rather deafening. |
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Soli Deo Gloria
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Quote from: Nic Samojluk on July 07, 2009, 09:48:25 PMStan.
Yes, saving one life instead of loosing two is still within the pro-life ethic. The problem, as you stated, is that pro-abortionists have “redefined life of the mother to mean health of the mother.” The health of the mother exception has been abused by many abortionists. The woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy says: “This pregnancy is affecting my mental health. I am depressed," and bingo, another innocent unborn baby is executed for the sake of convenience. In the case of incest and rape, I see no moral justification for punishing the innocent for the crime of the guilty because there is a better option: adoption.
Welcome Nic to the forum and thanks for your comments. I look forward to reading your doctoral dissertation on this topic which was posted above.Quote from: Richard Holbrook on July 06, 2009, 06:38:55 PMYes our SDA hospitals do perform abortions, and on a very large scale. Some years ago a friend of mine was attending a question and answer session where Neal Wilson (the General Conference President) was answering some questions. He was asked: Why do our hospitals perform abortions? My friend heard him say that all our hospitals did abortions....and if we didn't perform them for the women, we would lose their business....so we may as well make the money off them...
Back in the days of our pioneers we were definitely pro-life, but about 10 years before Roe v Wade it started to change. And this is where we are now.
If the above incident where Neal C. Wilson admitted that SDA hospitals do abortions for profit is true, (and I would like to see documentation for that--although it wouldn't surprise me knowing how Wilson answered in other situations) then the church is really in deep trouble.
Why do Roman Catholic hospitals never compromise on this issue? They won't even do tubal ligations due to their principles.
What does this say about the church claiming to keep the commandments of God? Is not the 6th commandment at least as important as the 4th? Doing abortions for profit? God will judge these sins, and it is difficult to see how He can bless a church who compromises itself so seriously on an issue as important as this.
Stan |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Richard Holbrook on July 06, 2009, 06:38:55 PMYes our SDA hospitals do perform abortions, and on a very large scale. Some years ago a friend of mine was attending a question and answer session where Neal Wilson (the General Conference President) was answering some questions. He was asked: Why do our hospitals perform abortions? My friend heard him say that all our hospitals did abortions....and if we didn't perform them for the women, we would lose their business....so we may as well make the money off them...
Back in the days of our pioneers we were definitely pro-life, but about 10 years before Roe v Wade it started to change. And this is where we are now.
Richard,
The incident you ascribe to Neal Wilson reminds me of how Dr. Edward C. Allred, a successful abortionist, rationalized his involvement in the abortion industry a few years ago before selling his Family Planning Associates highly lucrative business to Bud" Feldkamp, a SDA dentist, four years ago. Allred originally was planning to become a SDA minister, but later switched to medicine.
He graduated from LLU back in 1964 and decided to start an abortion business eventually owning 21 abortion clinics in California. He became a millionaire and left the church. On one occasion he was publicly asked whether he felt any guilt for being in the business of killing innocent unborn children. His answer was: “If I do not do this, women will go elsewhere for an abortion, so I might as well do it.”
Before Roe v Wade, we Adventists used to describe the killing of the unborn as “therapeutic abortions.” My question is: If abortion is a desirable form of therapy, why don’t the defenders of abortion fail to apply such therapy to themselves? |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Soli Deo Gloria on July 08, 2009, 02:21:25 AMWelcome Nic to the forum and thanks for your comments. I look forward to reading your doctoral dissertation on this topic which was posted above.
What does this say about the church claiming to keep the commandments of God? Is not the 6th commandment at least as important as the 4th? Doing abortions for profit? God will judge these sins, and it is difficult to see how He can bless a church who compromises itself so seriously on an issue as important as this.
StanStan,
I am glad you have decided to read my doctoral dissertation. Give me some feedback as you go along. In the event you decide to skip any of the material, I suggest that you do not skip the Appendices, which is where I summarize my findings. It is highly rewarding for me to learn that someone is interested in reading what I discovered at great cost in time, effort, and loss of personal business. I invested into this project thousands of hours without any hope of ever recouping my investment, and my hope is that the effort might yield some beneficial results for the sake of those who cannot speak for themselves.
Could it be that one of the reasons the Adventist Church did stop growing in the U.S. is because we decided to compromise on this moral issue? Besides, how can an organization grow when it is killing their own children, those who eventually would replace the ones who are dying? Notice how the SDA membership is growing by leaps and bounds in many Catholic countries where Adventists are condemning the practice of abortion! You said it right: worshipping God on the correct day of the week is important, but refraining from engaging in the mass genocide of the innocents is the essence of the Gospel. Look at what the Jewish leaders did two millennia ago: They killed the Author of life and rushed to keep the Sabbath. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Richard Holbrook on July 06, 2009, 07:22:18 PMA good friend of mine, Nic Samojluk wrote his Doctoral Dissertation on this very subject.
"From Pro-life to Pro-choice:
The Dramatic Shift in Seventh-day
Adventists' Attitudes
Towards Abortion"
A Doctoral Dissertation
by Nic Samojluk, Ph.D.
http://sdaforum.ipower.com/page13.html
Not only is it good reading, it's very enlightening. .......In answer to the original question, I would say yes.
Richard,
I did notice your posting advertising my doctoral dissertation. I did not react immediately to this simply because I am not used to such kind reaction to the work I have been doing on behalf of the unborn. The contrast between your warm reception to my self appointed mission and the apathy and criticism I have been receiving so far from the majority of Adventists who are aware of my work is so great that you left me speechless. In order to understand what I mean, you need to read the following report I filed on my web site following the Feldkamps’ tragic loss a few months ago which generated the strongest rebuke I have ever received in my life from an Adventist leader and from those who see nothing wrong with the killing of the unborn. Here is the link to it:
Is Sharing a News Item a Cardinal Sin?
http://sdaforum.com/page245.html |
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Agatha
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Good morning, Brother Samojluk! Last evening I began reading your dissertation not knowing you have become a member here. (I am on chapter 8 - whew! What a revelation!) And what joy it is to know we can discuss with you personally the findings contained in that document. I told some friends, it is one thing for us to expose to each other the horrendous downfall of leadership on this issue or any issue for that matter, I can only imagine the reaction of your professors at a non-SDA university to come to a knowledge of how we have horribly mishandled this all the while claiming remnant status among men. They see our hypocrisy. It is a sour dose of medicine, but it is obviously necessary given the magnitude of the sin in the camp.
Oh how I wondered how we came to have guidelines for this damnable practice. Guidelines are a far cry from moral statements given by the RCC and the Baptists. God used the Philistines and heathens to punish His people from time to time - it seems we are withering under the embarrassment of our failings compared to those we condemn in other areas. God is using them in a very public way to shame His people to repent and reform our practice.
There is so much more I wish to say, but will hold off until I get further along in your dissertation. I am sorry this document has been around for three years and I am just now discovering it. God bless you, dear man. All of heaven rejoices when there is a lone voice here and there that actually calls sin by its right name. For what it's worth, you have my complete support. I look forward to our discussion. |
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Agatha
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I would have a lot of backtracking to do if I were to begin at page one with comments and exhortations ; however, in Chapter 9 you are discussing the SDA Guidelines and I must respond at this juncture. Within that discussion you say this, Brother Samojluk:Quote... these pro-life declarations are again tempered and modified by a suggestion that
“decisions about life must be made in the context of a fallen world,” that “abortion should be
performed only for the most serious reasons,” and that “attitudes of condemnation are
inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel.” In light of the strong and unambiguous
condemnation of the practice of abortion by the early pioneers of the Seventh-day Adventists
Church, with no exceptions, can the current SDA official position on abortion be equated with
that of the early SDA Church? [8] The answer is “No.” of course!
Amen, first of all. Secondly, "decisions about life must be made in the context of a fallen world.” This attitude is one which keeps us in a cesspool of sin regardless of the issue. It is as if we are confronted with a multitude of moral dilemmas, of which we know there are actually none. Our moral dilemma is conjured up with our desire to compromise a "Thus saith the Lord" with our desire for comfortable outcomes. We have never been promised comfortable outcomes, quite the opposite. Suffering for His sake is our lot until the great controversy has been completed and I praise the Lord in knowing it will be completed.
Last year I got into this debate with a tremendously godly man. We were several days into our talks when he divulged his family had to make a decision between an unborn baby and the life of the mother. They have two small children and the mother is obviously needed, loved and cherished. So they opted to terminate the pregnancy based upon that factor. I asked him some hard questions, much like those I previously posted in this topic: where is your trust in God? We trust God in everything else, why would we stop trusting Him when placed in this situation? What if the mother dies, would God not see them through it? Would He leave them hopelessly adrift in their ensuing years? And something else to consider, we know God laid people in their graves just to save them. Has He stopped doing that? Is this ever an act that comes to mind when making these all important fallible human decisions? I know we don't - not in an overall sense. God knows the beginning and the end of everything. What kind of faulty decision could I make that would preempt the Divine Creator's choice for me - His plan for me, whether He lays me in the grave or not? That is a decision He must make for me - I can't make it. He is my Savior - I am not my own.
This reminds me of Dr. Pipim's series, "Faithful Unto Death" and his 20 situations. Either we make the faithful choice and leave the consequences in God's hands or we find ourselves compromising so our suffering will not be so acute. We are as prophecy predicted: utterly self absorbed to the point we will do anything, even commit murder, to avoid personal pain and suffering. Because our world is ladened with six thousand years of sin, compounded upon itself, does not change God's directives one iota. How we respond has changed - thus your dissertation. We have softened, given in, given up to the sinful pressures around us that we have completely forgotten what constitutes a moral decision. We are guilty as charged and repentance and reformation must be the #1 item on our new agenda.
Regarding “attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel”, it is such a tiring charge against those who have the nerve to call sin a sin. Conversely, a loving Christian would be remiss if he/she left those who need the truth as it is in Jesus out of their evangelical loop. Harsh Pharisaical condemnation is not what I am addressing. Yet those whom the Holy Spirit has nerved up, as Ellen White puts it, are those who will, with all their hearts, approach this sin and those who practice it with tears in their eyes and a heart as heavy as One in Gethsemane. We still have a few of those around.
Now, on to chapter 10. |
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Agatha
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Forgot something ... imagine that!
While reading through the first 9 chapters, I am saddened to know that some leading out to correct this damnation within our ranks actually left us. How can they affect change on the inside while they stand on the outside? The ship will go through. A mighty shaking is within sight when considering this issue along with the creation/evolution problems within our universities while leadership is all too quiet on the subject. We can see it will happen sooner rather than later. Where will those who left us be when it happens? Will they return? Will they join us as the Church Triumphant having fought the good fight of faith, standing firm though the heavens fall? I pray they will return. If they are the godly men they purport to be, they will return. Although the remnant church has experienced horrendous embarrassment because of its supposed stand on this issue, our good brethren who are on the right side should not be found languishing in Babylonian churches because they can no longer tolerate the remnant. God tolerates His church and will see her through until she is spotless, without wrinkle. They should come home. |
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Agatha
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Brother Samojluk, I completed your dissertation. Well done and thank you!
Chapter 10 was very difficult, as a matter of fact, a huge aversion to its subject was overwhelming at times and I had to leave it for a while. We need intercessory prayer services for such men and their abominations, to say nothing of our medical institutions, universities and the personnel at the head of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
Tell us, dear brother. How are you using your doctorate? Teaching? Clinical? We believe God raises up voices for a certain time in earth's history. This is most certainly yours. May God continue to accompany you and those like you in righting a very ugly wrong. |
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Doug Yowell
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Hi, I know I'm late to the discussion but this moral failure if my church has been my greatest burden over the past 25 years. Other than perhaps brother Nic I probably have the largest private collection of SDA actions (and inactions) on abortion over that time period. I have been active as a letter writer,and have consistantly presented the sinfulness of this practice in my Sabbath School teaching responsabilities. I was an active member of the now defunct Adventists For Life often writing articles for the Pacific Union Recorder as representative of that organization. The first and only Crisis Pregnancy Center started and operated by Seventh-day Adventists was officially begun in the living room of my mother's condo in Grand Terrace,Ca. with George Lawson (now a Seventh Day Baptist pastor),Dr. Fred Bischoff, and Dr. Edgar Veymeister. I have an extensive collection of articles,position papers,letters to the editor,letters and reports, and other miscellaneous documentation of the struggle for the protection of the unborn within the SDA organization. And although the documented evidence overwhelming suggests that the greater portion of Adventists are pro-life it has been the pro-choice/pro-abortion (There is no pragmatic difference between the two,the defacto result is still the unrestrained killing of the unborn) position that the church has chosen to promote. It has effectively and actively repressed any public agitation of the subject and instead chosen to demonize (literally) those Christians who have been leading the fight to eliminate this "nafarious practice"(not my original quote). I am a computer pre-schooler so when something hapens to this format I have no idea what to do about it! I can't see what I'm typing becauseit's below the bottom box line so I'll try to add morelater. I'm out for now |
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Nic Samojluk
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Agatha,
You gave me the greatest pleasant surprise I have experience lately. In order to understand the meaning of what I am saying, you need to comprehend the amount of rejection I have had to face since I started on my self assigned mission on behalf of the unborn.
If you want to have a glimpse of what I mean, you need to read what I wrote following the strongest condemnation of my activities by several members of my own community including that of a great Adventist preacher who happens to be my own pastor. The title is: Is Sharing a News Item a Cardinal Sin? And the link is: http://sdaforum.com/page245.html
Doug Yowell knows this quite well, because he was the first one to surprise me when he contacted me following my greatest disappointment in order to tell me that he was also pro-life. This revelation revived my courage and gave me the will to continue in the path I had chosen.
I know that other Adventists have been reading my dissertation, but you are the first, I believe, who had done so from beginning to end in one day. Did you read the Appendices as well and the notes? My views about abortion are mostly included in the notes for a special reason. Before I typed the final copy of my dissertation, a close friend of mine advised me about the importance of showing that I was not biased; and I concluded that, if I wanted my work to be approved, I would have to give less prominence to my personal bias about this controversial issue.
You indicated that you had trouble understanding how the Remnant church of God could end up adopting such Guidelines on Abortion. Several factors led so such decision. The major mistake was made when the General Conference decided to delegate the responsibility of drafting said guidelines to the Loma Linda University. This was equivalent to asking the tobacco industry to draft the guidelines on the production and distribution of tobacco products.
Other factors played an leading role in the decision as well. All this was taking place when the Cold War was in full sway. China had turned to Communism, and its population was threatening to become a human time bomb, and many experts were insisting that the population explosion was a greatest threat to the survival of the human race than the atomic weapons.
Besides, the Adventist medical institutions adopted the practice of hiring non-Adventists in order to staff their hospitals. When the state of Hawaii decided to legalize the practice of abortion, our hospital there found itself in a dilemma: Half of their physicians, who were non-Adventists, demanded the right to offer abortion services to their patients. The Adventist doctors protested, and this issue was elevated all the way to the North American Division, and under pressure, the NAD president issued a public declaration asserting that the Adventist Church was leaning towards abortion because there was too much hunger and overpopulation in the world. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Agatha,
Your enthusiasm on behalf of the unborn is quite contagious and it gives me a special pleasure to read your comments. I do share your views about the need to have faith in God’s providence. There is a story which deals with the issue of what to do when the life of the pregnant woman is at risk. This young woman was being treated in the hospital for an advanced case to tuberculosis, and her doctor had very little hope of helping her recover from a sure death. Christmas was approaching and her last wish was to spend the holiday with her husband and children.
The doctor gave her permission to do so, but warned her that if by any chance she got pregnant again, her hope of recovery would be zero. When the holiday season was over, the physician found out that in fact she did get pregnant again, and recommended that she have and abortion, but she was pro-life and would not listen to reason. As time went on, the baby grew and started to push against her diseased lungs and by the time the baby was ready for delivery she had experienced an unexpected remission and both the woman and her baby survived. Her baby had saved the woman’s life.
I wish I had more stories like this one. The sad part is that other women did not fare as well. There was the case of a Polish pro-life woman who likewise refused to have an abortion in spite of the fact that several physicians told her in no uncertain terms that both she and the baby would end dying. The woman refused to yield to the temptation to have her baby sacrificed for her benefit, and both of them died. There was also a similar case in Brazil. I do not have the particulars of that story, but I understand that the same thing happened.
Because of this, I would never condemn those women who, when confronted with such a dilemma decide to have an abortion. Saving one life instead of loosing two is still pro-life in my book! |
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Agatha
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QuoteDid you read the Appendices as well and the notes?
Yes, I did and appreciate all that you included. Now some may say that my pro-life stand, without any exceptions to health, are extreme, but of course, I do not think so. This is where pure, white faith comes in. Without it, these situations cannot be morally reconciled.
For your benefit, I will give you a little personal background - others on this forum have heard of it. While in one of our academies I was raped and it resulted in pregnancy. This was in 1966. Abortions were not legal, but even if they had been, it would never have crossed my mind to employ the services of an abortionist - but, it was in the mind of both my parents and of the boy's parents. I had just turned 16 and was still a minor, ignorant to the ways of the world and very much under parental control. So I was shipped off to Atlanta to have a backroom abortion. It did not work - I did not abort. So finding myself still pregnant after this incredible second insult upon my body, I was forced to marry the rapist because no one believed my account. The boy was very physical and caused me to fall on my tummy resulting in an early labor. I refused to deliver my child away from "Mother," even though she was a participant in this vile betrayal, I took $$ out of my husband's wallet and caught a flight home delivering the baby one hour after touch down. The baby was too small to survive and lived two days.
Because of the embarrassment all this caused my parents, they decided to forgo a funeral, but that is when I finally put my 16-year-old foot down and demanded one. I had been railroaded several times throughout this fiasco and decided enough was enough, so we had a public funeral and shortly after that I left home and the church. It was beyond my young ability to cope.
I believe my baby died as a result of a botched attempt at abortion by unscrupulous parents trying to hide their own shame coupled with physical violence against both of us by its father.
As the years ensued, I too got caught up in a mild version of womens lib but turned after 28 years in the world and came back to a life of holy living within the realm of God's remnant church. So, what I see you have exposed within our denomination is everything I am against. Not because of my emotional, physical, first-hand experience but because of God's Word. My experience has greatly faded with time and in heaven will be remembered no longer. This is a case of justifying God. It is no less sacred a task than that of honoring the fourth commandment, or the first, or the seventh, or the tenth. All of God's commandments are vital and we stand against this for only one reason: to justify the Creator of all life. |
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Deborah Risinger
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Agatha, your testimony really touched me, even on the "abortion" issue. I will not go into it...but...it makes me angry for doctors to perform this "killing" ....(forgive me.... but I am ascribing motives) ...not caring for the young girl, lady, woman who will have to deal with the memory, guilt and pain that is so often associated with "coming to terms" with what happened.
When I became an Adventist...a very nice pastor back in Mountain View California helped to put my sorrow to rest. BUT, how many have or find a godly person to help them get through the memories of such an act?
The abortionists are creeps.....sorry if that comes across so harshly.....but what they are so willing to do for money, philosophy, prestige or what ever....the child is lost (not necessarily to Christ), the female is sent away hurt in ways that can not be calculated.
This whole issue...even being remotely associated with the SDA Church cuts very deep. This is one example why our relationship with Christ must be personal, daily and intimate.... These things can be used to get us to leave the church. The devil would love that.
God Keep Us All
Deborah |
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Doug Yowell
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To all the tragic stories reported here I find myself "groaning within". Only the forgiveness of the one who gave life (and His Life) for those who "choose" to abort their unborn children will be able to aleve the guilt,pain, and condemnation that is the result of such a choice. Thank God!!! It is not only women who suffer these pangs of conscience but also countless numbers of men. I myself have been directly responsible for at least 2. My zeal is for not only the lives of the unborn but also for the millions of others involved in this discision (including the corporate leadership of our church)is not motivated by some theoretical,holier than thou self analysis as is often claimed by those who support abortion, but rather by the experiencial knowledge of what God has done for me as well as what God has promised on the day of judgment. It seems as though pro-choice Adventists sincerely believe that God has the same care for the unborn that they do (Ps.50:16-21). I do have one,perhaps, slight disagreement with the observation that the abortion decision in the church is more important than the controversy over the creation account in Genesis. The abortion debocle was based upon the leadership of the church's rejection of the guidance of the Scriptures and their prophet E.G.White. One should never overlook the central stated premise that the "guidelines" were established on: the "silence of Ellen White, and the "silence"of the Bible! The teaching of evolution in SDA schools is the natural result of "...even what he has will be taken awayfrom him." (Luke19:26).I fear that, unless we turn around, things will only get worse. |
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Agatha,
I am responding to your Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 11:16:33 AM. You asked the following: “I am saddened to know that some leading out to correct this damnation within our ranks actually left us. How can they affect change on the inside while they stand on the outside?”
Yes, when the Adventist church officially switched its position on abortion from pro-life to pro-choice, for three months I attended the Riverside Seventh-day Baptist Church. While there, I met George Lawson, an energetic former Adventist who had started the “Adventist for Life” pregnancy center in Loma Linda. He told me that the apathy and opposition of the Loma Linda Adventist community towards his mission was so evident that he decided to join the Baptist Church and move his clinic to Hemet. While he was going through this crisis of faith, he met Elder Richard of the Voice of Prophecy who told him that if he wanted to clean the church, he must remain inside it. This information prompted me to come back to my SDA Church.
In your posting you also made a reference to the “creation/ evolution” controversy taking place in the Adventist Church. On July 25 I am scheduled to talk about about this topic in one of the Loma Linda University Sabbath Schools which is attended by many LLU professionals many of whom are convinced that God created this world and the life on it through the evolutionary process. I will be defending our belief in the creation explanation for origins. I need the prayers of those who are concerned about this strange phenomenon. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Agatha,
I am responding to your “Reply #38 on: July 11, 2009, 04:04:45 PM.” In it you asked me the following question: “Tell us, dear brother. How are you using your doctorate? Teaching? Clinical?”
The answer is: I was a teacher for fifteen years of my life and then I switched to real estate. When I was sixty-five, following the tragic death of my youngest daughter at age fifteen, I realized the transitory nature of our human life, and decided to do something on behalf of the unborn. I made many attempts at having my views published in the Adventist publication without success. One day, I picked a copy of the “Adventist Today” and a copy of “Spectrum” magazines and discovered that all the names of the authors of the articles published in those publications were followed by the designation Ph.D.
This led me to believe that I would never get published in those magazines unless I had secured a Ph.D. diploma. I searched the internet and located a university which was offering a doctorate in religion by distant learning. I signed up, and ten years later I was able to finish the program. It took hard work and the blessing from above and a great loss of real estate business, since I was available for my business only part time.
At my age, I have no hope of ever recovering the huge investment of time and money my doctoral program cost me, and my only hope is to be able to save, perhaps, a few babies from a sure death. There is no doubt but that today the most dangerous place on earth is not Iraq nor Afghanistan, but rather a mother’s womb.
May the good Lord have mercy on the unborn and on God’s “Remnant Church” which has the “last message to a perishing world.” This message has now been stained with the sacred blood of the unborn. Given our church’s opposition to the pro-life movement, do you think that people like me have any chance of employment within the Adventist organization? |
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Larry Lyons
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Nic, thank you for your hard work and sacrifice of time and money. I will be praying for you that the Holy Spirit will convict the hearts of those who hear you. |
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Soli Deo Gloria
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Quote from: Nic Samojluk on July 13, 2009, 09:42:33 PMAgatha,
I am responding to your Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 11:16:33 AM. You asked the following: “I am saddened to know that some leading out to correct this damnation within our ranks actually left us. How can they affect change on the inside while they stand on the outside?”
Yes, when the Adventist church officially switched its position on abortion from pro-life to pro-choice, for three months I attended the Riverside Seventh-day Baptist Church. While there, I met George Lawson, an energetic former Adventist who had started the “Adventist for Life” pregnancy center in Loma Linda. He told me that the apathy and opposition of the Loma Linda Adventist community towards his mission was so evident that he decided to join the Baptist Church and move his clinic to Hemet. While he was going through this crisis of faith, he met Elder Richard of the Voice of Prophecy who told him that if he wanted to clean the church, he must remain inside it. This information prompted me to come back to my SDA Church.
In your posting you also made a reference to the “creation/ evolution” controversy taking place in the Adventist Church. On July 25 I am scheduled to talk about about this topic in one of the Loma Linda University Sabbath Schools which is attended by many LLU professionals many of whom are convinced that God created this world and the life on it through the evolutionary process. I will be defending our belief in the creation explanation for origins. I need the prayers of those who are concerned about this strange phenomenon.
Nic,
I also attended the 7th day Baptist church in Riverside for 2 years. Do you know pastor Gabriel Beijani? He has a ministry to muslims as well.
Stan |
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Nic Samojluk
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Doug,
I am responding to your “Reply #39 on: July 11, 2009, 08:19:51 PM.” Among other things, you stated the following regarding the pro-abortion and the pro-choice positions on abortion: “There is no pragmatic difference between the two.”
I am in full agreement with this view of yours! They are the same enchilada with a slightly different topping. If we condone the killing of the innocent for the crime of a rapist, if we justify abortion when the baby will interfere with a woman’s studies or her professional career, if we tell a minor that killing her own flesh and blood is morally acceptable because she is not of age, if we see nothing wrong about the execution of an unborn baby because the pregnancy is affecting the “mental health” of a woman, then what is the difference between one who is pro-abortion and another who is pro-choice? The end result is the same: a dead baby. Pro-choice means that said person justifies the killing of an innocent human being.
By the way, have you ever met a woman who is faced with an unplanned pregnancy who is not temporarily depressed? All a woman needs to get an abortion is to find a physician who will agree with her that the pregnancy is in fact affecting her mental health, and bingo, another human being is sacrificed on the altar of convenience. An innocent human being is dismembered or poisoned without the administration of anesthetics, and we go back to church singing hallelujah to the Lord of Life. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Agatha,
It is hard to imagine the pain you endured as a result of the attitude of people who think that the solution to crime is punishing the innocent. Your baby suffered, but you were subjected to a living hell. It is amazing how God has been able to heal your wound and transform you into an instrument of blessing. I admire your willingness to share with others your experience with the aim of encouraging the readers to learn from the mistakes of those who had erred in the past. May the good Lord continue to be a blessing to those who are fortunate to read your testimony. Your faith is admirable and worth of emulation by everybody. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Deborah,
I am responding to your « Reply #49 on: July 13, 2009, 12:58:35 PM.» You stated the following among other things:
“The abortionists are creeps.....sorry if that comes across so harshly.....but what they are so willing to do for money, philosophy, prestige or what ever....the child is lost (not necessarily to Christ), the female is sent away hurt in ways that can not be calculated. This whole issue...even being remotely associated with the SDA Church cuts very deep.”
You said it right. The most painful fact is to know that the “Remnant church of God” is involved in justifying this horrendous crime against humanity. Our official “Ministry” magazine reported a few years ago that five of our medical institutions were offering elective abortions to their patients. In addition to this, our “Guidelines on Abortion” do condone the practice of punishing the innocent for the crime of the guilty.
If taking the life of the unborn is morally acceptable for our church, then should we be surprised that one of our own became the owner of over twenty abortion clinics in California? He eventually left the church, became a millionaire, and justified his crime by arguing that if he were to stop killing babies, women would go to someone else for the same service. Four years ago, he sold his profitable business to another Adventist named Feldkamp who is considered as a respected member of our community.
What is wrong with this? If the church argues that the killing of the innocent is morally justifiable under so many circumstances, including when the mental health of a woman is affected, then providing abortion services to women becomes a profession as honorable as dentistry, law, nursing, or teaching. And why would it be wrong to profit from killing the innocent?
There is a need for our church to take a radical step in this respect and get out of the abortion business. We need to pray for a modern Moses or Lincoln willing to be God’s instrument in the freeing those destined to a sure death. |
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Agatha
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Brother Samojluk, God bless you! Yes, it was a living hell and the thing that made it harder to comprehend was: How do I now perceive my parents? My dad was awful from the day I was born and still is, so I knew where to place him in the scheme of things, but Mother? How could my sweet Mother be a part of this? My two brothers stood afar off observing the whole thing. The events of that year, 1966 so altered my perception of parental wisdom, to say nothing of those who stood back in silence, that I truly wanted to divorce all of them. You speak of depression in your reply to Brother Yowell, I went several steps beyond that. I created a new persona to be able to deal with it and really didn't come out of it until I was around 30. And of course, a new persona meant I lied about my past, got new friends after I dropped all the old ones and moved out of town.
Just before that happened, some very good friends who knew me as a little girl could see what was going on. They scooped me up and sent me to one of our remote academies in hopes of spiritual salvage. Wayne Thurber was the principal. My love of music coupled with his genius in that area made for a friendship I will forever cherish. He let me sing and play the piano through all my heartache. He took me to the academy chapel and sat in one of the pews and told me to begin. I sang and played for hours all the while he sat there in silence. It was incredible! He and his family moved at the end of that semester and the man I had come to love as an earthly father was gone - that is when I created the new persona, leaving school, the church and went to a place where no one knew me. All of this at the age of 16. Because I was becoming a pro at lying, I told a potential employer I was 18 just so I could get a job and support myself. Life was very messy and confusing for me, but along the way, some 32 years later, I responded to the religion of my childhood after having read enough about it to realize how weak my parents really were, how evil this world is and how strong Jesus is! It was only then, in the context of the great controversy, that everything made sense.
To come back to see all that has gone on within the church in my absence was more than shocking. It was not the church of my childhood and I truly debated whether or not I was making the right decision - but I kept reading, even assisting Brother Fagel with the online Spirit of prophecy books listed on the White Estate website. That was my study site.
All I can say is: God put something within me to keep going. It was His power, not mine. He saw down that long messy road and knew I needed protection and strength along the way to see me to it. That was ten years ago. So I am one grateful child of God. Without Him nothing makes sense. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Larry,
I am responding to your « Reply #60 on: July 14, 2009, 01:37:43 AM. »
I did sacrifice my retirement on behalf of my self appointed mission for the unborn, but Jesus sacrificed much more for all of us. Due to my advanced age—77--I have no hope of ever recovering my investment in time and money, and I may never be able to retire, but if the lives of some innocent babies are saved as a result of my efforts, I will feel that my work has not been in vain.
Knowing about your moral support and the support of many others who frequent this blog has given me a new lease on life. You people have treated me with respect and appreciation. For the last few decades I have known very little of this royal treatment. I have been rather used to rejection and disdain. May the good Lord richly bless you all. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Stan,
I am responding to your « Reply #61 on: July 14, 2009, 03:18:41 AM. »
That is an interesting coincidence. Evidently you attended said church much longer than I did. The name of Pastor Gabriel Beijani sound familiar, but I can’t mentally place him among those I know. At my age, I wouldn’t be surprised if one day I fail to recognize my own name. Is he the one who has a special Bible study strictly based on the Koran? |
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Nic Samojluk
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Agatha,
I am responding to your « Reply #65 on: July 14, 2009, 10:34:15 AM. »
It is evident that your have a powerful testimony of the power of God to restore our self image and our commitment to serve the Lord in spite of incredibly difficult circumstances. Trying to understand how those we love could have been so cruel is an impossible task. The only answer which is powerful in restoring our inner peace is the act of forgiveness. I am assuming that you have forgiven your parents for the way they treated you, and I hope they have repented of their actions. We need to forgive those who have mistreated us not only for their sake, but for our own sake as well.
You state that when you came back to the church you had a hard time recognizing it as the church of your childhood. This reminds me of what my Adventist Church looked like sixty years ago when I was baptized. Belief in evolution was unheard of among Adventists, and everybody agreed that abortion was a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment. When I think about how my church was transformed, I sometimes hope it is merely a bad dream and that I will suddenly wake up and discover that it has been simply a nightmare.
God’s love for his earthly church is stronger than disappointment, frustration, and even death. I believe that those who have embraced evolution and abortion have a blind spot in their spiritual vision. At the same time, I recognize that I may also have some spiritual blindness which is visible to others, which reminds me of my need to be humble. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Agatha,
I noticed that Richard Hollbrook already answered your question regarding the identity of Fedlkamp. Following that airplane tragedy, I received by Email from a non-Adventist pro-lifer the link to the story—the first link posted by Richard—and I thought that it would be a good idea to share it with those on my Email list, the majority of whom are pro-choice. Immediately all hell broke loose.
I tried to explain that I have a news service forum and it is my business to share news items with others, but this aggravated the situation, and finally I received the strongest rebuke I have ever received in my life from my pastor, who I admire as a great preacher. He is convinced that sharing a news item which identified Feldkamp as the owner of one of the largest abortion clinics in California was a cardinal sin on my part, and that I should have kept his connection with the abortion industry a secret.
My philosophy is this: Engaging in abortion is either morally right or wrong. If the Adventist Church justifies the killing of the unborn under a variety of circumstances like rape, incest, when the pregnant female is a minor, and when the pregnancy is affecting the mental health of the woman, then providing abortion services should be as honorable as being in the dental, law, nursing, or teaching profession, and there should be no reason to be ashamed that one of our own members is engaged in such a business. On the other hand, it the abortion business is morally wrong; then the church should get out of said enterprise and follow the example of Catholic hospitals who do not perform abortions.
You can read the report I filed following this traumatic experience of my life as a member of the pro-life community. Here is the link to it:
Is Sharing a News Item a Cardinal Sin?
http://sdaforum.com/page245.html |
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Arnie
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This reminds me of the many stories found in the Old Testament. Sister White spoke about how those who sinned and were in rebellion against God were held up as if they were wrongfully dealt with by those in charge, by the people of Israel. The ones who spoke out against sin and open rebellion were accused of being the wrong doer and who were dealing unjustly with those who were sinning.
Today we see the same thing happening in our church. God has raised up those who speak out against these sins such as abortion, homosexuality and evolution, among many other evils coming into our church. Those who speak out are labeled as problem makers, told to "hush up" and keep to yourself. Also those who speak out are condemned for speaking out and made to be the offender, accuser and the one who is committing open rebellion and sin by saying something. Interesting how Satan is twisting people's minds when we have truth and examples shown to us from scriptures. They can not even recognize themselves as doing evil. They are sleeping, deceived and blind... Laodicean. We are told we have more to fear from within our church than without.
God bless those who do His work in speaking the truth for His sake and will. We pray that many will listen and wake up before it is too late. |
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Doug Yowell
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It seems like we have a tendency to let the question originally posed by Pastor OFfill drift off into the sunset while we are trying to find our cameras. Should Adventist Christians Have More to Say About Abortion? I guess the more pressing question might be,"Does the Leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church Care what pro-lifers (like ourselves)think about abortion. Obviously, Bud Feldkamp had a lot to say. So has John V. Stevens and Kevin Paulson! But William G. Johnsson, after the release of the "guidelines", stated, "I see no need to agitate this question further". This reply,however, was directed to a pro-life supporter. Why has this deafening silence been so pervasive? Why do our leaders (including Dwight Nelson of all people) have so much to say about abortion only in the context of their criticism of those who are active in trying to end its practice? Probably the most openly critical is our religious liberty dept. Why would any pro-life Adventist risk a public corporate tongue lashing,being manipulated by the sinister Religious Right? Or maybe Leadership is afraid that talk might lead to action? I don't know if Pastor OFfill reads these posts but if he does maybe he has more access to the thinking behind the scenes. How bout another spin of the original question,"Should Adventist Christians Have More to DO About Ending Abortion? |
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Larry Lyons
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You make some very good points Doug. Is it that some of the leaders in our chruch do not want our church to be associated in the public mind with the folks who picket abortion clinics, target physicians and even their families for harrassment, and even murder physicians?
That might be understandable, but it does not excuse moral cowardice.
I think I posted this before, but Alan Reinach, the Pacific Union Conference R.L. Director, spoke out against abortion when the question was raised at a religious liberty rally a few years ago. He agreed with a statement from a young woman criticizing the church's lack of support for the fight against abortion. He said that there may come a time when we look for support from the Evangelicals on certain issues we are dealing with. He said they will laugh in our face and say, "Where were you when we were fighting the abortion battles?" |
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Nic Samojluk
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Richard,
I am responding to your « Reply #77 on: July 15, 2009, 08:16:06 PM. » Your comment was:
“I would imagine Bud Feldcamp pays a lot of tithe to the church since he's a member in good standing, but it's blood money.”
Because we value human life from the moment of conception, we see this as “blood money;” while those among us who see nothing wrong with the killing of the unborn think that nothing is wrong with accepting said tainted funds in order to advance the mission of the church.
Abortion cannot be both right and wrong at the same time. If dismembering the body of a developing baby is morally acceptable, then there is nothing wrong with accepting said “blood money;” and those engaged in the business of killing unborn children are providing a useful service to humanity and their profession is as honorable as dentistry, law, nursing, or teaching.
On the other hand, if taking the life of the innocent for the crime of their parents is morally wrong then said blood money will be cursed by the Lord, and we need to raise the voice of alarm. When Achan took gold which had been cursed by the Lord the entire community suffered a terrible loss. This curse remained in force until the entire Israeli congregation publicly made things right.
Our first reaction might be to condemn the action of those who profit from the abortion industry, but we need to realize that these individuals are doing so with the blessing and official sanction of our Adventist Church. This means that there is a corporate responsibility which needs to be addressed. We cant blame the wrong of a few individuals for the sins of the church.
If abortion is morally reprehensible, then our church needs to divorce itself from the business of killing innocent human beings. This will not be an easy task, because for several decades now we have been indoctrinating our youth with the idea that the unborn are not members of the human race. This theory is based on the notion that humanity is achieved after there is evidence of brain activity in the developing child.
Some time ago, I participated in a debate with a highly respected member of the Adventist Church. He is a physician, and he is one of the champions in the defense of the 28 fundamental Beliefs of the church. I pressed him to define for me the point in the development of the unborn when he would consider it a crime to take the life of the unborn. He said it was after the twentieth week of pregnancy.
I then asked him what he would do if Mary, the mother of Jesus, had asked him for an abortion. She was single and pregnant. “I would not have hesitated a moment,” he responded. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of influential Adventists, many of whom are occupying positions of responsibility in our institutions, who share this kind of morally distorted views.
Some months ago, a highly respected individual was teaching the Sabbath School lesson, and he made an allusion to the fact that, while the genocide was taking place in Germany, our Adventist Church did cooperate with the Nazi regime, and recently the German and Austrian leaders publicly apologized for this reprehensible behavior. I raised my hand and predicted that at some future time, the Adventist Church will have to apologize for repeating a similar mistake on the issue of abortion, and I did remind him that some years ago, he had reported in our “Ministry” magazine the fact that five of our medical institutions were engaged in the provision of elective abortions to their patients.
When the lesson was over, he complained to me that with my observation I had hurt his reputation. He was concerned about his reputation, but he was blind to the fact that millions of innocent unborn babies were being summarily executed, with their bodies being mercilessly dismembered on a daily basis with the blessing and acquiescence of the church. It is evident that as a church, we have developed a blind spot regarding the evil of abortion. Of course, I do realize that those of us who are in the pro-life camp might have other kinds of blind spots as well. We all need to repent of our sins. |
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Soli Deo Gloria
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Nic,
I wonder at what point we should start naming names as to who these "influential" doctors and pastors are who are trying to defend the indefensible?Quote from: V. Hahn on July 16, 2009, 08:08:34 AM
I'm still confused because I can actually see both sides of the issue. Again, not because I am for abortion, but for protection of freedoms.
Shouldn't we as Adventists focus more on living pure and holy lives, the sanctity of life, keeping the commandments (including "thou shalt not kill!") and teaching others those things, so that the problems that lead to abortion are halted? Could we not "identify" with either camp, since they both have problems, and uplift God and His holy law, which, of course, would point in the direction of no abortion, but wouldn't put us in that (seemingly and in many Americans' eyes) radical camp?
The church takes strong stands against so many lesser sins than abortion, but why is abortion a protected freedom for church members? But if they should have a cup of coffee, then they become suspect? Forgive me if this comes off as an exaggeration, but I have seen this type of thing many times. Much lesser sins are condemned, but the greater sins such as abortion are openly tolerated.
Stan |
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Nic Samojluk
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Stan,
I am responding to your « Reply #89 on: July 16, 2009, 11:35:42 AM. » You asked the following question:
"Nic, I wonder at what point we should start naming names as to who these "influential" doctors and pastors are who are trying to defend the indefensible?"
I know that I will get into big trouble again after I try to answer your question. I think that you need to read my dissertation because I specify there the definitions I utilized in my study for the pro-life and pro-choice terms. At the end of my research, I included an Appendix where I identify some individuals according to my perceived opinion on where they stand in relation to the issue of abortion.
Since then, I have been able to identify other individuals as either pro-life or pro-choice. Don’t ask me to name them. I have gotten into big trouble more than enough. Many of those in the pro-choice list I admire for their loyalty to the Adventist church. We are not dealing with a personal guilt, but rather a collective moral error in judgment which needs to be corrected. Separating the wheat from the chaff is better reserved for the Second Coming.
If you do read this appendix, make sure you do not skip the introductory explanation to those lists. This is extremely important, because what someone has stated several years ago may not reflect their present understanding of the issue at hand. Besides, the small sample of those individual’s writings I was forced to utilize make those lists rather unreliable. Here is the link to said Appendix:
PRO-LIFE & PRO-CHOICE LISTS
http://sdaforum.com/page116.html
You also made the following observation:
“The church takes strong stands against so many lesser sins than abortion, but why is abortion a protected freedom for church members? But if they should have a cup of coffee, then they become suspect? Forgive me if this comes off as an exaggeration, but I have seen this type of thing many times. Much lesser sins are condemned, but the greater sins such as abortion are openly tolerated.”
Yes, let’s not forget that those who killed the Author of Life, rushed to observe the Sabbath according to God’s Law. They had violated the Sixth Commandment and hurried to make sure they were careful observers of the Fourth. |
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Soli Deo Gloria
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Quote from: Nic Samojluk on July 16, 2009, 12:37:49 PMStan,
I am responding to your « Reply #89 on: July 16, 2009, 11:35:42 AM. » You asked the following question:
"Nic, I wonder at what point we should start naming names as to who these "influential" doctors and pastors are who are trying to defend the indefensible?"
I know that I will get into big trouble again after I try to answer your question. I think that you need to read my dissertation because I specify there the definitions I utilized in my study for the pro-life and pro-choice terms. At the end of my research, I included an Appendix where I identify some individuals according to my perceived opinion on where they stand in relation to the issue of abortion.
Since then, I have been able to identify other individuals as either pro-life or pro-choice. Don’t ask me to name them. I have gotten into big trouble more than enough. Many of those in the pro-choice list I admire for their loyalty to the Adventist church. We are not dealing with a personal guilt, but rather a collective moral error in judgment which needs to be corrected. Separating the wheat from the chaff is better reserved for the Second Coming.
If you do read this appendix, make sure you do not skip the introductory explanation to those lists. This is extremely important, because what someone has stated several years ago may not reflect their present understanding of the issue at hand. Besides, the small sample of those individual’s writings I was forced to utilize make those lists rather unreliable. Here is the link to said Appendix:
PRO-LIFE & PRO-CHOICE LISTS
http://sdaforum.com/page116.html
You also made the following observation:
“The church takes strong stands against so many lesser sins than abortion, but why is abortion a protected freedom for church members? But if they should have a cup of coffee, then they become suspect? Forgive me if this comes off as an exaggeration, but I have seen this type of thing many times. Much lesser sins are condemned, but the greater sins such as abortion are openly tolerated.”
Yes, let’s not forget that those who killed the Author of Life, rushed to observe the Sabbath according to God’s Law. They had violated the Sixth Commandment and hurried to make sure they were careful observers of the Fourth.
Thanks Nic,
I did click on that link and I am familiar with most of the names. I have just come off a very busy week, but I hope to get time to read your thesis soon
Stan |
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Doug Yowell
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thanks for your honesty V.Hahn.Your confusion is not abnormal particularly in SDA circles. Much of this is due to the clever way that those who support abortion weave dishonesty into their arguments. A part of it is also that so many Adventists treat abortion as a philosophical and theological ping pong ball that's kinda interesting to play with sometimes (until the gme gets serious). There are several aspects of your reasoning that haven't been adaquately explored yet. You may not be aware of the historical fact that Roe v. Wade and it's twin ruling Doe v. Bolton struck down abortion laws that had been on the books for almost 100 years. Don't you think it odd that Ellen White never warned the church ( every prominant SDA leader supported abortion legislation) of the dangers that enacting those laws would pose to freedoms in America? Does anyone ever ask what freedom is endangeredby REINSTATING previous abortion restrictions? Is the "freedom" to kill an unborn child,another living human being, one of those "rights"that need to be protected? Is it wrong to be openly in one "camp" if that camp is in the moral right ? How would we as Christians be judged by history if we took the same approach towards the abolition movement? Our defacto position as it stands today is squarely and clearly in one camp---the pro-choice camp. And the pro-choice camp is not neutral because it SUPPORTS the practice of abortion. I don't mean these as a criticism of you but rather I ask you to think more deeply about the concerns you've already expressed and examine the truthfulness of the claims of those who would have us believe that right was wrong and vice-versa. |
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Doug Yowell
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Just one more question (this is not a rhetorical question) V.Hahn,if you'll indulge me. You consistently refer to one camp as being radical. Why is the pro-life camp radical? Why are those who oppose the unrestrained killing of the unborn considered radical? What pro-life methodology or ideology justifies this label? What would that say about about Adventists who were actively involved in the movement (like Dr. Nic Samojluk)?What does this say about our SDA pioneers? Have you ever considered that maybe it is not the pro-lifer that is the radical?Have you ever asked why that that which was once considered (40 years ago) normative is today seen as radical? |
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Nic Samojluk
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Arnie,
I am responding to your « Reply #79 on: July 15, 2009, 09:07:04 PM.»
Thanks for your comments. I agree with what you said. How can we remain silent when human beings, created in God’s image, are being summarily executed for the sin of having been prevented from taking their first breath? The rights and whims of the adults are being respected, while the most basic right—life--is being set aside for the sake of convenience. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Richard Holbrook on July 15, 2009, 10:24:32 PMCry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Isa 58:1
This text may be refering to ministers, but if they will not or cannot then somone else has to, no?
How true. It is an awkward situation, because now we need to do the work God’s ministers were hired to do. This is like hiring a gardener to do a job and paying him for performing his duty, and then having to do the job ourselves. The Bible describes such individuals as dogs that won’t bark:
“Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep.” [Isaiah 56:10] |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Larry Lyons on July 15, 2009, 11:43:31 PMIt is obvious that in all of the articles and ads about Adventist hospitals and the various departments at Loma Linda and elsewhere, never a word is said about abortion. As you said Nic, if it is a moral and righteous practice, why should it be kept quiet? Why be ashamed of it? And if it is not, why are we doing it?
I wonder if there are Roman Catholics and people of other denominations who might have accepted the 3 ange's message but the abortion policy caused them to reject the church.
Larry,
Loma Linda University has done wonders on behalf of the sick and also on behalf of a healthier lifestyle. At the same time, it has given us the “Guidelines on Abortion” which justifies the killing of the unborn under a variety of circumstances, including rape, incest, malformation, when the pregnant female is a minor, and even when a woman is faced with an unwanted pregnancy which causes her to feel depressed—the mental health exception. In other words, these guidelines are suggesting the following: If you don’t want the baby, you have a morally viable option: abortion.
In this, the baby’s interest is ignored for the sake of the woman’s convenience. Contrast this with the Catholic position which forbids their hospital from providing abortions to their patients. This is the reason several of our Adventist members have opted to join the Catholic Church. The “Beast of Revelation” has transformed itself into the protector of the innocents, and the “Remnant Church of God” has sided with the Devil on this issue. Whenever we decide to do what beasts of prey do, we partake of the image of the beast. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Doug Yowell on July 16, 2009, 12:02:09 AMDoes the Leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church Care what pro-lifers (like ourselves)think about abortion. Obviously, Bud Feldkamp had a lot to say. So has John V. Stevens and Kevin Paulson! But William G. Johnsson, after the release of the "guidelines", stated, "I see no need to agitate this question further". This reply,however, was directed to a pro-life supporter. Why has this deafening silence been so pervasive? Why do our leaders (including Dwight Nelson of all people) have so much to say about abortion only in the context of their criticism of those who are active in trying to end its practice?
Doug,
This reminds me of my own experience on this issue. Several decades ago, the editor of my church’s bulletin wrote a critical piece castigating the activities of pro-lifers. I sent my response in defense of the pro-life position. It was rejected arguing that the topic was rather controversial. Years later, the Pacific Union Recorder published an article written by John Stevens Sr. arguing that unborn babies did not have any right to life until they took the first breath. I sent my comments in defense of the unborn.
I received an answer claiming that the magazine did not engage in controversial issues. I also sent small donations to my local church and to the General conference identifying those gifts as pro-life. Those checks were returned with the message: “The church has no pro-life program.” What can I conclude from all these actions? That the only interest of the church is to protect abortionists—not the lives of the unborn. No wonder we have the owner of one of the largest chain of abortion clinics in our midst whose reputation is carefully guarded by the church. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: V. Hahn on July 16, 2009, 08:08:34 AMIs it wrong to force someone to do it my way if they don't see it as a sin?
V. Hahn,
Would you ask the same question if instead of abortion we were dealing with rape, incest, or sexual abuse of children. Bear in mind that the wounds of the victims of rape, incest and sexual abuse may eventually heal and lead the victims to a productive life. In contrast, the victims of abortion can never recover from the ordeal. If you had advance knowledge of a rape, would you say: “Oh, well, I can’t force someone to do it my way if they don't see it as a sin?” |
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Nic Samojluk
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Doug,
You wrote the following above: "Don't you agree that holy living includes recognizing that "If anyone defiles the temple of God,God will destroy him.For the temple of God is holy,which temple you are"? And wouldn't you agree that if the the damaging of one's lungs through the habitual use of tobacco would violate the basic "health message",that the intentionial destruction of the most basic responsability of a pregnant woman would, at least, be equal in moral gravity?"
For many years we Adventists have championed the cause against smoking, and our dedicated Loma Linda researchers have demonstrated by scientific studies that those who do not smoke tend to live on the average approximately five years longer than smokers.
My question to our fellow Adventists is this: If we have invested so much money and time to show the dangers of the smoking habit in order to extend the life of smokers by five years, wouldn’t it make sense to also invest money and time to prolong the life of the unborn? Remember that every time we save an unborn baby from abortion, we are prolonging the life of a human being, not by merely five years, but rather by an entire life span—probably seventy or eighty years.
Since this is an undeniable fact, how come we Adventists do not have any interest in starting a pro-life program? On several occasions I have sent donations to my local church and even to the General Conference designating the funds as pro-life. My checks were returned back to me with the following observation: “The Adventist Church does not a pro-life program.”
Wouldn’t it make more sense to invest our hard earned money into the pro-life movement than the anti-smoking effort we have championed for many years? Actually, we have no need to discontinue our efforts against the tobacco companies, but rather join the pro-life effort of so many Americans whose goal is to reduce the number of abortions. Instead, some of our hospitals are participating in the business of killing human beings created in the image of God. Does this make sense?
Jesus said: “I have come that you might have life.” How can Jesus mission be fulfilled if we participate in taking the life of the unborn? Jesus also said: “Let the children come to me.” How can the unborn come to Jesus if we dismember their tiny bodies before they have had a chance to take their first breath? The Bible also says: “Choose life.” Do we honor God when instead of choosing life; we choose death for our children?
Some years ago, I wrote an article dealing with this subject. Here is the Internet link to it:
Mind if I Smoke?
http://sdaforum.com/page36.html |
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Larry Lyons
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Quote from: wondering on July 18, 2009, 05:59:49 AMThough I certainly believe our church's position should be pro-life, and that we should have taken a decided stand on this long ago, I don't think the church should spend much time, effort, or money to promote it. Our mission is to spread the gospel. We are to bring people to Jesus Christ. We are to lift up His law (which includes the prohibition on killing), but I don't think this issue should become the center of our gospel presentation.
For the most part people's minds are set on this issue - and their position is usually based on or accompanied by strong emotions. We will not win their hearts and minds on this issue through intellectual argument. We will not win them by joining hands with the churches of Babylon on this issue. We will only make progress on this as we bring them to Jesus Christ.Wondering, whether or not the church joins a campaign against abortion is not the big issue right now. I agree that bringing people to Jesus is our mission. However, the fact is that the church through its hospitals and doctors performs abortions every day thus taking a pro abortion stand. It boggles my mind that this can be rationalized in any way, especially with the latest imaging techniques that demonstrate the behavior of infants interacting with the outside environment while still in the womb. How can the church maintain any credibility as we teach that the Ten Commandments are binding including the Sabbath but we claim by our actions that killing unborn babies is OK? I believe that it is a PR disaster waiting to happen. Regardless of the motives of those responsible for this, it will appear to the world as an example of monumental hypocricy on the part of our church. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: wondering on July 18, 2009, 05:59:49 AMThough I certainly believe our church's position should be pro-life, and that we should have taken a decided stand on this long ago, I don't think the church should spend much time, effort, or money to promote it. Our mission is to spread the gospel. We are to bring people to Jesus Christ. We are to lift up His law (which includes the prohibition on killing), but I don't think this issue should become the center of our gospel presentation.
For the most part people's minds are set on this issue - and their position is usually based on or accompanied by strong emotions. We will not win their hearts and minds on this issue through intellectual argument. We will not win them by joining hands with the churches of Babylon on this issue. We will only make progress on this as we bring them to Jesus Christ.
Wondering,
I agree with you that our main mission as a church is to lead human beings to Jesus Christ. This includes leading children to him, because Jesus said: “Let the children come to me.” My question to you is: How can we lead the unborn to Jesus if we are participating in the abortion business, and if one of our own is the owner of one of the largest chain of abortion clinics in California?
You are suggesting that our church should not invest money into the pro-life mission. I have to disagree. Please read my response to Doug above. If we have invested millions into the anti-smoking effort so that smokers can extend their lives by five years on the average, wouldn’t you agree with me that helping to extend the lives of the unborn—not by merely five years, but rather by seventy or eighty years—would make even more sense?
I believe that our church should be in the forefront in the effort to reduce the number of abortions in our country. The Bible orders to “choose life” and we are choosing death for our children. Does this make sense to you? We should immediately contact the leadership of our church and start sending our donations so that the General Conference will start a pro-life program. This would bring new life and energy to our church. I will write a letter to the GC to this effect. Will you join me in this?
Now, regarding your suggestion that it would be wrong to join our hands with Babylon on this noble cause, you need to read what Ellen White said about the temperance and the anti-slavery movement. Not only she did join hands with Babylon in those noble causes, but she also encouraged others to do likewise. Ellen White became an outstanding champion in the temperance movement in spite of the fact that this was a joint effort by many Christian denominations. We Adventists have always supported the American Bible Society, regardless of the fact that their leaders are non-Adventists. |
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wondering
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Quote from: Nic Samojluk on July 18, 2009, 09:40:09 AMWondering,
I agree with you that our main mission as a church is to lead human beings to Jesus Christ. This includes leading children to him, because Jesus said: “Let the children come to me.” My question to you is: How can we lead the unborn to Jesus if we are participating in the abortion business, and if one of our own is the owner of one of the largest chain of abortion clinics in California?
You are suggesting that our church should not invest money into the pro-life mission. I have to disagree. Please read my response to Doug above. If we have invested millions into the anti-smoking effort so that smokers can extend their lives by five years on the average, wouldn’t you agree with me that helping to extend the lives of the unborn—not by merely five years, but rather by seventy or eighty years—would make even more sense?
I believe that our church should be in the forefront in the effort to reduce the number of abortions in our country. The Bible orders to “choose life” and we are choosing death for our children. Does this make sense to you? We should immediately contact the leadership of our church and start sending our donations so that the General Conference will start a pro-life program. This would bring new life and energy to our church. I will write a letter to the GC to this effect. Will you join me in this?
Now, regarding your suggestion that it would be wrong to join our hands with Babylon on this noble cause, you need to read what Ellen White said about the temperance and the anti-slavery movement. Not only she did join hands with Babylon in those noble causes, but she also encouraged others to do likewise. Ellen White became an outstanding champion in the temperance movement in spite of the fact that this was a joint effort by many Christian denominations. We Adventists have always supported the American Bible Society, regardless of the fact that their leaders are non-Adventists.
Nic,
I agree that our church should be on the forefront - to a point. Part of spreading the gospel includes "Thou shalt not kill", so naturally that would include abortion, in my mind. We should clean our own house to be sure and take a decided stand in our church and its medical institutions. The problem is much deeper than abortion, however, in the SDA medical community. It will take much more than changing our stand on abortion there to bring us in line with counsel on this area (but I won't side-track this thread).
I will look into the EGW information you suggest. I'm just concerned about us linking ourselves with much of what constitutes the pro-life movement here in the US. Many of the groups come off with attitudes that are not Godly, in my opinion, and no matter how good the cause we should not be linked to people who speak or act in extreme ways. I realize that the this is the worst case scenario, but during EGW's day were the temperance societies killing bartenders or bombing bars? Were they shooting the owner's of smoking clubs? This issue is far more volatile than most and deserves that we exercise caution in our associations on the issue.
The war against abortion will be won one on one - as people are converted. Clean our own house, for sure! But keep this in focus - this issue is only a part of what we have to do and should not be separated as some how larger or more important than everything else we have been commissioned to do. |
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Soli Deo Gloria
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Quote from: wondering on July 18, 2009, 04:22:52 PMNic,
I will look into the EGW information you suggest. I'm just concerned about us linking ourselves with much of what constitutes the pro-life movement here in the US. Many of the groups come off with attitudes that are not Godly, in my opinion, and no matter how good the cause we should not be linked to people who speak or act in extreme ways. I realize that the this is the worst case scenario, but during EGW's day were the temperance societies killing bartenders or bombing bars? Were they shooting the owner's of smoking clubs? This issue is far more volatile than most and deserves that we exercise caution in our associations on the issue.
Wondering,
The comparison that Nic made to the temperance issue and the pro-life issue is totally valid. It is only the very extremists position that would sanction abortion clinic bombings. Please don't characterize the rest of the evangelical community as being extreme on this issue. How can the gospel go out in power while their is this terrible sin in the camp? The sin of Achan had to be dealt with in Israel of old, and the church of Jesus Christ today must take a bold stand on this issue.
Stan |
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Nic Samojluk
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Wondering,
You stated the following: "I'm just concerned about us linking ourselves with much of what constitutes the pro-life movement here in the US. Many of the groups come off with attitudes that are not Godly, in my opinion, and no matter how good the cause we should not be linked to people who speak or act in extreme ways. I realize that the this is the worst case scenario, but during EGW's day were the temperance societies killing bartenders or bombing bars? Were they shooting the owner's of smoking clubs? This issue is far more volatile than most and deserves that we exercise caution in our associations on the issue."
I have had the privilege of participating in some of the pro-life activities organized by non-Adventists and I do receive material published by pro-life organizations, and I have seen nothing that could fit the extreme positions you describe. Everything I have witnessed starts with prayer, some information about the activities in the pro-life movement, and followed by distribution of educational pro-life literature. I have never heard nor seen any encouragement or incitement to participate or act in “extreme ways.”
The isolated cases of individuals who have occasionally taken the law into their own hands do not represent the true pro-life movement. A true pro-lifer can never violate what the pro-life stands for: respect for life, even the life of abortionists. Violence brings only disrepute to the pro-life movements and is condemned by the true representatives of those in the pro-life camp. I have never read nor seen any attempt by pro-life organizations towards a departure from peaceful demonstrations and peaceful activities.
There is one aspect, though, of the pro-life activities I am not sold on: the public display of graphic pictures of aborted babies. I prefer to see pictures of healthy babies, or at least the inclusion of live babies in order to illustrate what pro-choice really means. What I would like to see is the replacement of Adventist participation in abortion services with pro-life activities designed to reduce the number of abortions which are taking place in America.
In my own pro-life web site [ www.sdaforum.com ] I have never used the pictures of aborted babies. |
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Doug Yowell
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Wondering,I was wondering whether you were wondering whether some of us who are adamantly pro-life (like James White, Uriah Smith, Nic Samojluk,ect...ect)were actually uninterested in the fullness of the gospel message? Is the fear of becoming swept up into Babylon important enough to silence our voice against such a great moral depravity in our society? Don't you think that God's true church is gifted enough to actually be the head and not the tail of this call to sanity? I don't think you would speak the same if you understood the direct relationship between our health message (the right hand of the gospel) and the care for the unborn?Would you want to abandon our crusade to ban tobacco? Is a human life worth less than a lung? I don't think you believe that. You also state that pro-temperence advocates didn't kill bartenders and bomb bars. I don't know if teetotalers killed bartenders or not but I do know that they did burn bars and run their owners out of town!! Besides, did the actions of John Brown negate the demonstrate that the abolution movement itself was evil? This attempt to portray the pro-life movement as inherently violent and extreme(your words) is a lie that has been perpetuated by those who call evil good and good evil. Do you know how many abortion clinics have been bombed in the past 30 years? How many abortion doctors have been murdered? How many acts of violence have been condoned by the anti-abortion movement? Most of these intentional myths have been past down as fact by a media whose hatred of right living motivates them. Many in our own church have past on these lies to us thinking they were true because it fit thier own prophetic (mis)intrepretation.Please don't base your fears on popular reports. I think you're headed in the right direction but please don't let yourself believe what is not true. |
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V. Hahn
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Quote from: wondering on July 18, 2009, 04:22:52 PMNic,
I agree that our church should be on the forefront - to a point. Part of spreading the gospel includes "Thou shalt not kill", so naturally that would include abortion, in my mind. We should clean our own house to be sure and take a decided stand in our church and its medical institutions. The problem is much deeper than abortion, however, in the SDA medical community. It will take much more than changing our stand on abortion there to bring us in line with counsel on this area (but I won't side-track this thread).
I will look into the EGW information you suggest. I'm just concerned about us linking ourselves with much of what constitutes the pro-life movement here in the US. Many of the groups come off with attitudes that are not Godly, in my opinion, and no matter how good the cause we should not be linked to people who speak or act in extreme ways. I realize that the this is the worst case scenario, but during EGW's day were the temperance societies killing bartenders or bombing bars? Were they shooting the owner's of smoking clubs? This issue is far more volatile than most and deserves that we exercise caution in our associations on the issue.
The war against abortion will be won one on one - as people are converted. Clean our own house, for sure! But keep this in focus - this issue is only a part of what we have to do and should not be separated as some how larger or more important than everything else we have been commissioned to do.
Wondering, we are in total agreement. You said what I wanted to say...only much more articulately. Thank you!
Vicki |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Doug Yowell on July 19, 2009, 12:56:12 AMThat being said, It's important to note that the question of abortion is not a strictly religious or theological one. You may be suprised to know that their are many non-Christian's involved in the struggle to demoralize this ugly practice. In fact,there is actually a group called Athiests for Life that actively supports the pro-life cause! Something else that, incredibly,never gets reported by the mainstream news sources (or Adventists sources either).
I decided to check about these pro-life atheists and discovered that it includes agnostics as well, and that the membership includes those who allow for exceptions in case of rape, incest, and even cases when the health of the pregnant woman is affected; which means that their pro-life position is rather meaningless because there is no distinction between the pro-life and the pro-choice position. The mental health exception, for example, makes the pro-life and the pro-abortion positions indistinguishable. All a woman needs to say to her abortionist is: This unwanted pregnancy makes me mentally depressed, and--bingo--the abortionist will find a way to secure an abortion for her.
"Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League Homepage
1) be an avowed atheist, agnostic, or other nontheist
2) oppose abortion and desire its abolition (with or without exceptions)
3) support nonviolence as the sole legitimate means of achieving the goals of the pro-life movement "
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html |
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Soli Deo Gloria
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Here is a link to the movie "silent scream'
http://www.silentscream.org/
The director of the above movie depicts in graphic detail what an abortion actually does. Dr. Bernard Nathanson was the counrty's top abortionist. Ultrasound technology changed his mind on this, but he was an atheist when he changed his position on abortion and quit doing them and made the above movie.
Here is his remarkable confession:
http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html
He is now a champion for the prolife movement and has converted from atheism to Catholicism. Let us pray that he will be led into more truth.
If one can watch the above movie and read Dr. Nathanson's confession and still be prochoice, then there is no convincing one despite the facts.
Stan |
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Deborah Risinger
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When I became an SDA...a lady from one of the sister churches here in my area invited me to a meeting....they showed "The Silent Scream"...I was horrified and riddled with guilt...it broke my heart. The reckoning was rough. God helped me to deal with such "truth."
Tough, painful, absolute horrifying "truth." Such an evil...
Thank God for forgiveness and new life.
Deborah |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Soli Deo Gloria on July 21, 2009, 04:22:36 PMHere is a link to the movie "silent scream'
http://www.silentscream.org/
The director of the above movie depicts in graphic detail what an abortion actually does. Dr. Bernard Nathanson was the counrty's top abortionist. Ultrasound technology changed his mind on this, but he was an atheist when he changed his position on abortion and quit doing them and made the above movie.
Here is his remarkable confession:
http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html
He is now a champion for the prolife movement and has converted from atheism to Catholicism. Let us pray that he will be led into more truth.
If one can watch the above movie and read Dr. Nathanson's confession and still be prochoice, then there is no convincing one despite the facts.
Stan
Soli,
The same could be said about Norma Mc Corvey, who was the litigant in the Roe v Wade case which resulted in the legalization of abortion back in 1973. She became a Christian and she is now doing all she can to get the case overturned. She wrote a book entitled “Won by Love.” |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: wondering on July 18, 2009, 07:55:46 PM
I will admit I am unfamiliar with many of the pro-life groups, so I have a side question for those of you that are familiar with them. Are most of them believers in the literal creation story of Genesis? I ask because the Catholic church does not - and yet they purport to believe that abortion is wrong. To me it seems that the issue for them is more about politics and power because it is inconsistent to believe that life evolved around survival of the fittest and still believe that abortion is wrong. Abortion would seem to be a compatible view with evolution. Whereas an anti-abortion stance would seem to be more compatible with the Genesis creation account.
Wondering,
Yes, it is inconsistent. There is a strong connection between the belief in evolution and the acceptance of abortion. Margaret Sanger, who was a believer in the superiority of the White race, believed that the proliferation of the black race, which she considered to be inferior, could be controlled by means of abortion. She was a champion of the eugenics movement which was eventually embraced by Hitler and which led him in his efforts to exterminate the undesirable, the handicapped, the unproductive members of society, and the members of the inferior races.
It is hard to find perfect consistency in the belief systems of human organizations. The belief in the theory of evolution tends to go hand in hand with the practice of abortion, but there are exceptions, one of which is the Catholic Church. We find the same kind of inconsistency among Adventists who reject the theory of evolution, but justify the violation of the Sixth Commandment which forbids the killing of the innocents. Some of the most adamant defenders of the story of creation see nothing wrong with abortion. This is hard to comprehend! |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: V. Hahn on July 18, 2009, 07:57:24 PMWondering, we are in total agreement. You said what I wanted to say...only much more articulately. Thank you!
Vicki
Vicki,
Yes! I would add the following: The pro-life movement is based on peaceful activities and condemns violence as a means for achieving its objective. Those who resort to violent means do so in direct violation of what pro-lifers stand for. Nevertheless, as we consider the action of a few freaks, we need to keep things in its proper perspective. Since 1973 there have been five murders performed by anti-abortionists. At the same time the murders committed by abortionists have surpassed the fifty million. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Deborah Risinger on July 21, 2009, 10:09:26 PMWhen I became an SDA...a lady from one of the sister churches here in my area invited me to a meeting....they showed "The Silent Scream"...I was horrified and riddled with guilt...it broke my heart. The reckoning was rough. God helped me to deal with such "truth."
Tough, painful, absolute horrifying "truth." Such an evil...
Thank God for forgiveness and new life.
Deborah
Deborah,
Yes, we do have a compassionate and willing to forgive God. My question is: How can women who have had an abortion seek forgiveness if our church is telling them that there is nothing wrong in killing the unborn under such a variety of circumstances, including when a woman’s unwanted pregnancy is interfering with her mental health. How can those women repent and seek forgiveness? How can our sisters repent if our ministers are afraid of preaching against this sin? A few years ago, one of my friends asked our former pastor why he never preached about abortion. His answer was: “If I do this, some members might get offended.” If preachers are afraid to preach about sin, what hope is there for sinners? Have you heard any sermons about abortion lately? |
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Nic Samojluk
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There is no doubt that we Adventists have done a lot to increase the life expectancy of Americans, especially in the area of our smoking cessation program as the following excerpt from an article published in Adventist Review indicates. Could we likewise start a program on behalf of the unborn? Every time I send a pro-life donation to the church, my check is returned with the following notation: “The Adventist Church does not have a pro-life program.”
“Adventists Join in Commending U.S. Anti-Smoking Bill. President Barack Obama speaks at a bill signing ceremony for sweeping new anti-tobacco legislation June 22 in the White House Rose Garden. Anti-smoking advocates are praising the bill, which gives the nations Food and Drug Administration broad authority to restrict tobacco use. [photo: DeWitt S. Williams/ANN] The bill, which comes 45 years after the U.S. Surgeon General first linked smoking and lung cancer, will impose higher taxes on cigarettes, further restrict tobacco advertising, and ban what the White House calls misleading claims, such as light or low-tar. It also aims to halt illegal sales of tobacco products to children, ban candy- and fruit-flavored cigarettes, and allow the FDA to lower the amount of nicotine in tobacco products. Following years of relative inaction from the government on the issue of tobaccos, the bill is a step in the right direction, said Peter Landless, associate director for the Adventist world churchs department of Health Ministries. ...” Read More: http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2740
Adventists should be commended for their efforts to reduce the smoking habit which deprives smoker of five years of their live. How about abortion, which deprives unborn babies of their entire life? |
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Deborah Risinger
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Nic, to answer your question...if a woman's relationship is with God first and with the "organized church" after that...and keep the two separate......seeking forgiveness and receiving from Him .....it will happen.
The church contains a mixed multitude.....I can love it, serve it, be apart of it...but, all of that and how I respond to it (the organized church) "hinges" on my life "with The Savior."
This is very disappointing what is happening with abortion....if my relationship with Christ "was not"....it would be easy to leave. But, because it is "the apple of God's eye"...then it is to be to me the same.....
This must cut to the heart of God in a way that is unexplainable.........
God Keep Us All
Deborah |
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Doug Yowell
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Nic,you have to realize that smokers DON'T have the right to choose so we have plenty of recourse as a church there. Hammer the tobacco industry and support the abortion industry. It makes sense,right? I've got another one for you. Further proof of Adventism on the slippery slope. In the April 2009 Adventist World starting on page 22 is an article by Allen R. Handysides entitled "A Plastic Polluted Planet". The final two paragraphs sum up the twisted priorities that we have established. "As the planet becomes "shrink-wrapped" in plastic,all life is squeezed and distorted. As the world becomes more and more like a trash heap of pollution,God must look with horror at our ways...It might be easy to say."Oh, Jesus will someday make it all right,"but I don't want to be among those who make it all wrong! Surely, we respect God enough to honor His handywork." I guess unborn children are less important than my left over Stater Bros. grocery bag! |
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prolife
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I began praying about this subject just a few months ago,after I discovered the SDA Forum. Although I was born prolife, I was keeping my opinions to myself. Then I figured out that what's the use of believing the right thing if I wasn't doing anything about it? So I decided to become active and the first thing I decided to do is pray about it. I would like to bring this problem to the attention to many of our ministries and hopefully get them praying about it, too. I am encouraged to learn about this website from Nic Samojluk of SDA Forum. There needs to be many more to take up this cause. I would like prayer that the Holy Spirit will change church members’ hearts, minds, and attitudes toward abortion. Pray that He will open their eyes so they can see its sinfulness. Ask Him to awaken their consciences about the fate of the unborn boys and girls in our church, country, and world. |
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Larry Lyons
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Quote from: prolife on July 26, 2009, 09:15:54 PMI began praying about this subject just a few months ago,after I discovered the SDA Forum. Although I was born prolife, I was keeping my opinions to myself. Then I figured out that what's the use of believing the right thing if I wasn't doing anything about it? So I decided to become active and the first thing I decided to do is pray about it. I would like to bring this problem to the attention to many of our ministries and hopefully get them praying about it, too. I am encouraged to learn about this website from Nic Samojluk of SDA Forum. There needs to be many more to take up this cause. I would like prayer that the Holy Spirit will change church members’ hearts, minds, and attitudes toward abortion. Pray that He will open their eyes so they can see its sinfulness. Ask Him to awaken their consciences about the fate of the unborn boys and girls in our church, country, and world.Amen prolife, and welcome to the forum! Yes we must pray thatour church members understand that abortions are being done in our hospitals and that they understand that it is dreadfully wrong. We must also pray that the leaders will have the courage to take a stand against this practice and be willing to help stop it. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Larry & Agatha,
I have the suspicion that the one who, according to the Bible, has been “a murderer from the beginning” is trying to accomplish what Pharaoh of old and Herod the Great did when they did engage in the slaughter of the innocents. Nevertheless, let’s not forget that the Lord miraculously intervened to save the lives of Baby Moses and Baby Jesus from the genocide. When Satan makes desperate attempts to annihilate a large group of innocent human beings, it may be a sign that the Lord is about to liberate his people. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Larry Lyons on July 26, 2009, 12:12:18 PMI believe that the fact that while the Seventh-day Adventist church preaches the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath while Seventh-day Adventist hospitals, physicians and nurses perform abortions may well serve to cause a major crisis of credibility for the church. It is a public relations time bomb waiting to happen.
I have been reading the predictions of some news analysts who expect that the draft will have to be re instituted in the near future. I think that it may be a problem for conscientious Adventist young people who ask for the traditional 1AO classification. In the past, they could refer to the church's traditional stand on non combatancy. Now, from what I understand, in the U.S, it is not uncommon for Adventists to serve in military combat units. It seems to me, that will undercut the attempt for a young person to claim that our church does not believe in killing. The fact that the church does abortions may also be used against them as well.
Larry,
You made an excellent observation! This is why I devoted an entire chapter to Desmond T. Doss in my doctoral dissertation about abortion, the Adventist soldier who refused to bear arms in time of war even when the bullets were flying all around him. The Lord did preserve his life under the most dangerous circumstances and he was able to save the lives of numerous American wounded soldiers for which President Harry Truman honored him with the Congressional Medal of Honor. You can read this here: http://sdaforum.ipower.com/page13.html |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: prolife on July 26, 2009, 09:15:54 PMI began praying about this subject just a few months ago,after I discovered the SDA Forum. Although I was born prolife, I was keeping my opinions to myself. Then I figured out that what's the use of believing the right thing if I wasn't doing anything about it? So I decided to become active and the first thing I decided to do is pray about it. I would like to bring this problem to the attention to many of our ministries and hopefully get them praying about it, too. I am encouraged to learn about this website from Nic Samojluk of SDA Forum. There needs to be many more to take up this cause. I would like prayer that the Holy Spirit will change church members’ hearts, minds, and attitudes toward abortion. Pray that He will open their eyes so they can see its sinfulness. Ask Him to awaken their consciences about the fate of the unborn boys and girls in our church, country, and world.
Prolife,
You took the most important step any Christian can take if he wants his life to have an impact on others. The Bible states: “'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.” [Zech. 4:6] Prayer does for us what no human being can: change us and redirect the main purpose of our life. All reform must start with us individually. We need to pray first for the Holy Spirit. Unless the Holy Spirit makes a tangible change in our own life, nobody will pay attention to what we say or do. We need to be baptized by the power of Almighty if we want to be a blessing for others.
By the way, thanks for advertizing my web site. The main purpose of the SDA Forum is to raise the issue of abortion among Adventists. The rest of the material is incidental. For those who may have never visited the site, here is the Internet link to it. http://www.sdaforum.com/ May the good Lord bless you abundantly in your desire to serve him. |
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prolife
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Quote from: Larry Lyons on July 26, 2009, 10:14:15 PMAmen prolife, and welcome to the forum! Yes we must pray thatour church members understand that abortions are being done in our hospitals and that they understand that it is dreadfully wrong. We must also pray that the leaders will have the courage to take a stand against this practice and be willing to help stop it. A hearty amen to that!
The trouble is, some people believe that the unborn aren't humans or persons yet, so they're not covered under the commandment. If they're not human persons, then destroying them isn't breaking the commandment. Some people believe they're not persons until they start breathing air. Those of us who have educated ourselves know that isn't true. We need to get it right that human life begins at conception. I believe this, and I believe that the Bible teaches it, too. Pray that the church arrives at a correct understanding of this. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: prolife on July 28, 2009, 03:32:42 PMThe trouble is, some people believe that the unborn aren't humans or persons yet, so they're not covered under the commandment. If they're not human persons, then destroying them isn't breaking the commandment. Some people believe they're not persons until they start breathing air.
Prolife,
Yes! This is evidence of Satan’s power to deceive even the elect. We can’t break that power; only Jesus can. This is why we need to rely entirely on guidance from above. The Devil is always inventing ways of making people believe that certain human beings do not have the right to life. This is how the institution of slavery was established and defended by preachers who saw no wrong in treating members of the black race as inferior to the rest of the human race. Thanks God and thanks to Wilberforce and Lincoln this erroneous concept was discarded. I believe that it is high time that we do away with abortion the way we did away with slavery. |
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prolife
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Quote from: Nic Samojluk on July 28, 2009, 05:26:45 PMProlife,
Yes! This is evidence of Satan’s power to deceive even the elect. We can’t break that power; only Jesus can. This is why we need to rely entirely on guidance from above. The Devil is always inventing ways of making people believe that certain human beings do not have the right to life. This is how the institution of slavery was established and defended by preachers who saw no wrong in treating members of the black race as inferior to the rest of the human race. Thanks God and thanks to Wilberforce and Lincoln this erroneous concept was discarded. I believe that it is high time that we do away with abortion the way we did away with slavery.Nic,
I agree. I guess this means working on two fronts. Trying to change the law of the land, and trying to change our church. |
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prolife
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I am worried about the continuation of our personal freedoms and freedom of conscience in this country. I am strongly opposed to abortion. I believe it is in violation of the sixth commandment in God’s law.
The proposed government run healthcare forces me to pay for free abortions of others with my taxes. That makes me an accomplice.
If I am a medical professional, this proposal forces me to learn, perform, and assist with something I don’t believe in, and is morally abhorrent to me.
If all this isn’t bad enough, I will be forced to pay for a huge bailout of the abortion industry with my taxes
If I refuse to pay taxes in protest I will be thrown in jail..
Also, Catholic hospitals may have to close their doors if they won’t compromise their beliefs for this abortion mandate.
If this legislation is passed, freedom of conscience may be a thing of the past. |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Doug Yowell on August 01, 2009, 07:40:20 PMDeborah, thanks for your support for the unborn. I'll pass on a quick historical note that, hopefully, will ease your ecumenical fears. Anti-abortion laws were passed throughout the union in the mid to late 1800's. Ellen White saw no, zero, nada, zilch danger in this then or in the future! In the May/June 1973 edition of Liberty magazine, Elvin Bention commenting on the RoevWade decision stated "Whatever else may be at stake, neither of the religion clauses of the First Amendment is at stake". If sister White wasn't worried about Adventists joining others in opposing (politically) abortion, then I'm not going down that road either.
Doug,
Thanks for this important information. We could add that Ellen White never criticized her husband for labelling the practice of abortion as outright murder. The Bible tells us that silence means approval. She was God's spokesperson, and had her husband been wrong on this issue, she would have spoken. Besides, she did describe the neglect of a pregnant woman's health as an almost murder of the unborn child. My common sense tells me that the actual killing of an unborn baby would have properly and accurately treated by her as an actual murder. This represents, I believe, a case where an arguments from silence must have some weight. |
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Doug Yowell
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Quote from: Nic Samojluk on August 01, 2009, 08:10:41 PMDoug,
Thanks for this important information. We could add that Ellen White never criticized her husband for labelling the practice of abortion as outright murder. The Bible tells us that silence means approval. She was God's spokesperson, and had her husband been wrong on this issue, she would have spoken. Besides, she did describe the neglect of a pregnant woman's health as an almost murder of the unborn child. My common sense tells me that the actual killing of an unborn baby would have properly and accurately treated by her as an actual murder. This represents, I believe, a case where an arguments from silence must have some weight.Nic, I'm glad I'm not a nail cuz you would've just given me a major headache. Your " argument from silence",in this instance, carries a lot more weight (like myself) than most Adventists realize. Perhaps ignorance is bliss. Given that this "silence" issue is always used by proponents of abortion to convince Adventists that Mrs. White would have been eagerly supportive of abortion, if asked today, I would appreciate it if you elaborate on it a little more.And try not to revert back to common sense too often cuz it really messes up your academic credentials!! |
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Nic Samojluk
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Quote from: Doug Yowell on August 01, 2009, 08:34:37 PMI would appreciate it if you elaborate on it a little more. And try not to revert back to common sense too often cuz it really messes up your academic credentials!!
Doug,
I believe that the Bible supports the argument from silence under certain circumstances. Consider the following biblical example:
“When a young woman still living in her father's house makes a vow to the LORD or obligates herself by a pledge and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand.” [Numbers 30:3-4]
"If a woman living with her husband makes a vow or obligates herself by a pledge under oath and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her and does not forbid her, then all her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand.” [Numbers 30:10-11]
“Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. But if her husband says nothing to her about it from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or the pledges binding on her. He confirms them by saying nothing to her when he hears about them.” [Numbers 30:13-14”
Since Ellen White was chosen by God to be his spokesperson, she had the authority to correct her husband’s doctrinal errors. Since she didn’t, then James White’s strong condemnation of abortion must stand.
I am of the opinion that there is no need to leave our common sense when we walk through the sacred doors of academia. Even God considers the use of our brain power as appropriate under certain circumstances for he said: "Come now, let us reason together" [Isaiah 1:18] |
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prolife
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Quote from: Larry Lyons on July 26, 2009, 12:12:18 PM"I believe that the fact that while the Seventh-day Adventist church preaches the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath while Seventh-day Adventist hospitals, physicians and nurses perform abortions may well serve to cause a major crisis of credibility for the church. It is a public relations time bomb waiting to happen."
Larry,
I have often wondered why we teach and preach about the Sabbath and the ten commandments so much and are so unconcerned about abortion. I've only heard one sermon about it when the preacher was discussing the new General Conference guidlines. He thought that we should be both prolife and prochoice. I didn't get it.
A lifetime Adventist I know took her daughter twice to get an abortion. (I didn't know until after the fact.) If she had heard a few sermons from the pulpit about the wrongness of abortion maybe it might not have happened. The few sermons I've heard about the sixth commandment didn't mention abortion. Some clear moral guidance from the pulpit might be in order.
In my opinion, our church should be the most prolife church out there today because of our teaching that the ten commandments are still in force and are still binding today. The Bible tells us if we break one commandment, we are guilty of breaking all. It also tells us that God's people will be found keeping all ten commandments. That's just not true today with the things going on now. |
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Larry Lyons SMHRWBI
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Prolife, I think it was suggested on an earlier thread that there is a link between the belief in evolution and abortion. This afternoon I watched the Ben Stein documentary titled "Expelled," which is about academic freedom and the rabid efforts, largely successful, by the scientific establishment to prevent the discussion of Intelligent Design in American academia. In the movie it is pointed out that there is a clear connection between Darwinism, and eugenics, planned parenthood in the U.S., abortion, euthanasia and the murder by Hitler and the Nazis of those who they considered lesser human beings that shouldn't allowed to live and propagate.
The movie points out that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood was a believer in eugenics and the elimination from the "breeding population" of those considered to be inadequate or weak specimins of humanity. It was also noted that earlier in the 20th century, the 30s and 40s I think, in the U.S. 50,000 people were involuntarily sterilized because it was decided that they were unfit to reproduce. Eugenics had a following here. Hitler just took it a step farther.
It is interesting that it is now being revealed that certain Adventist science professors are teaching evolution at La Sierra, practically next door to Loma Linda where abortions are being done.
BTW, in order to separate your response from the quote, when you add your response, make sure your curser is on the line below the word quote at the bottom of the quote. |
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Slingshot
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Quote from: Larry Lyons on August 04, 2009, 10:11:58 PMProlife, I think it was suggested on an earlier thread that there is a link between the belief in evolution and abortion. This afternoon I watched the Ben Stein documentary titled "Expelled," which is about academic freedom and the rabid efforts, largely successful, by the scientific establishment to prevent the discussion of Intelligent Design in American academia. In the movie it is pointed out that there is a clear connection between Darwinism, and eugenics, planned parenthood in the U.S., abortion, euthanasia and the murder by Hitler and the Nazis of those who they considered lesser human beings that shouldn't allowed to live and propagate.
The movie points out that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood was a believer in eugenics and the elimination from the "breeding population" of those considered to be inadequate or weak specimins of humanity. It was also noted that earlier in the 20th century, the 30s and 40s I think, in the U.S. 50,000 people were involuntarily sterilized because it was decided that they were unfit to reproduce. Eugenics had a following here. Hitler just took it a step farther.
It is interesting that it is now being revealed that certain Adventist science professors are teaching evolution at La Sierra, practically next door to Loma Linda where abortions are being done.
BTW, in order to separate your response from the quote, when you add your response, make sure your curser is on the line below the word quote at the bottom of the quote.
That reminds me of something I read a couple of weeks ago. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg commented during an interview (I am paraphrasing) that she always thought part of the rationale of Roe v. Wade was that there were groups of people who society would like to see have abortions. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that.
This is a classic Eugenics argument. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was up to her eyeballs in that ugly stuff. In Buck v. Bell, Supreme Court Justice Holmes wrote an opinion allowing a Virginia woman to sterilized against her will and commented that "Three generations of idiots are enough." As you said, the Nazis just took it a step further.
Stein's movie is very good, by the way. |
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Larry Lyons
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I just watched on Hope Channel part a a discussion between Dr. Handysides and another physician from GC health ministries on the subject of stem cells. Although they were talking about stem cell research and the promises of future life saving benefits and the necissity of weighing that against the ethical dillemas that surround this issue, they could just as easily have been discussing abortion.
Handysides explained that stem cells are taken from fertilized human eggs that have been frozen and stored for future use by couples who have been been to fertility clinics. These fertilized eggs and the stem cells removed from them contain all of the genetic information necessary to develop into a human being.
The ethical question involved is the same as with abortion. When does life begin? Dr. Handysides denies that the Bible provides a clear answer to this question. The conclusion of the discussion was that people have the right to make their own decisions so it must be left up to the couple as to whether their egg can be used for medical research. In other words the apparant position of the Adventist church, as stated by the General Conference Director of Health is one of "free choice" exactly the same as with abortion.
I was quite dissapointed. For awhile it looked like the discussion was going in the opposite direction. |
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Doug Yowell
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Sorry to hear that Larry. I think there's a lot of disappointment around here. But not suprise. Wouldn't it be a nice "shocker" if someone representing the remnant came out in open opposition to the destruction of preborn human life?? Doesn't our health message include proper care for the unborn baby, like no smoking or drugs or alcohol?l It is my recollection that Handysides was on the "Human Life " committee but don't quote me on that it's been awhile. He did, however, come out boldly against the overuse of plastic in a recent edition of the Adventist World.Save the world,watchout for plastic!!! What if we exercise our freedom of choice and just throw all of our empty milk(soy) cartons into the ocean or out in the street? Does the freedom to choose "principle" still apply? As for the question of when life begins, in the case of abortion it is a red herring.A very slippery and successful red herring(my cousin also has red hair). The reason why is simple. No abortionist will risk the procedure until the unborn baby is at least 8 weeks old!! And if the baby is already dead than it's not referred to as an abortion. By that age there is no "potential" human being there's already brain waves, a fully functioning heart,sexual identification,DNA,ect... The real principle is that once you reject God's truth you're left in darkness with the blind leading the blind. Once a person's will becomes more important than God's will than the will becomes God,but I'm getting preachy. Was anything mentioned about adult stem cells?How about the possibility that the promises attached to embryonic stem cells may never be realized?? |
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Nic Samojluk
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Larry,
Thanks for the information you shared with the rest of us. By coincidence, I have just mailed a letter to Dr. Handysides regarding the abortion issue. Here is a copy of what I wrote to him:
“Dr. A.R. Handysides, Director
GC Health Ministries Department
General conference of Seventh-day Adventists
12501 Old Columbia Pike
Silver Springs MD 20904
Enclosed, please find a $300 check donation for the Pro-life Program of the SDA Church. You will probably be tempted to return said funds to me like Shirley Rowley did back in 2003 explaining that “Dr. Handysides stated that there are currently no pro-life organizations” within the Adventist Church. I believe that it is time that our church starts a pro-life program. Here are my reasons:
1. The SDA early pioneers were pro-life and condemned the practice of abortions in the strongest possible terms. See my doctoral dissertation dealing with this topic: http://sdaforum.ipower.com/page13.html
2. The Adventist church did support the movement against slavery with the blessing of Ellen G. White in spite of being a moral and political movement.
3. For many decades we have been involved in the anti-smoking movement in spite of its close connection with politics. If we care about prolonging the life of smokers by five years of their life, should we not do something as well for prolonging the life of the unborn—not by five years—but by 80 or 90 years of their life?
4. I know of many faithful Adventist members whom we lost as a result of our apathy toward the plight of the unborn. Some of them joined the Catholic Church because of its strong stand against abortion.
5. There are several Internet blogs where this issue is discussed, and the majority of the participants in one of them do manifest a decided pro-life leaning. It is an Adventist site and its address is: http://revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=3053.0
6. Thousands of dollars are being donated to non-Adventist and even Catholic pro-life organizations which could be channeled through the Adventist organization. If this were to be implemented, it would give more credence to some statements which were made in the past claiming that Adventists are pro-life. Some years ago, for example, President Jan Paulsen publicly stated while in the Philippines that the Adventist Church is pro-life with some exceptions. How can people believe this if we do not have a pro-life program in the church?
7. The Bible has one definition for sin which states that it represents “missing the mark.” Within this definition, killing an unborn baby instead of giving it up for adoption would be a sin. Of course, there is also the Sixth Commandment and the prohibition for the shedding of innocent blood.
I hope you accept my humble donation and decide to advertize that the church now does have a pro-life program designed, perhaps to encourage women to opt of the “more excellent way” of giving their unborn children for adoption instead of killing them. If this idea is from above, the Lord will bless the church more abundantly from now on.
Your brother in Christ,
Nic Samojluk”
I was thinking that if other pro-life Adventists would do something similar to what I did, perhaps the General Conference might yield to our request and start an Adventist pro-life program. |
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